Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
/G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.

Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
not to be radar any more.

How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway? How do you maintain
separation? Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
working? I assume this is in the controller's handbook, but forgive my
laziness. Just curious.

-- David Brooks

For the purists, s/radar/RADAR/g. For the pedants, 1,$s/radar/RADAR/g

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
> /G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
> with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
> and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.
>
> Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
> not to be radar any more.
>
> How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
> nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway?
>

Bingo.


>
> How do you maintain
> separation?
>

You might not. But if they weren't on the verge of collision immediately
prior to the loss of radar they won't be on the verge of collision
immediately after the loss of radar. While there must be separation
standards avoiding collision is the reason for ATC.


>
> Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
> working?
>

Nope. The loss of radar will not cause the ATC facility to hit an aircraft
or terrain.

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>> Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
>> working?
>>
>
>Nope. The loss of radar will not cause the ATC facility to hit an aircraft
>or terrain.

But it could cause an aircraft to hit an ATC facility. Probably why
you guys are moving all those tracons off the fields and into safe
locations in the middle of nowhere.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
>>/G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
>>with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
>>and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.
>>
>>Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
>>not to be radar any more.
>>
>>How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
>>nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway?
>>
>
>
> Bingo.
>
>
>
>>How do you maintain
>>separation?
>>
>
>
> You might not. But if they weren't on the verge of collision immediately
> prior to the loss of radar they won't be on the verge of collision
> immediately after the loss of radar. While there must be separation
> standards avoiding collision is the reason for ATC.
>
>
>
>>Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
>>working?
>>
>
>
> Nope. The loss of radar will not cause the ATC facility to hit an aircraft
> or terrain.
>
>

But it might cause an aircraft to hit the tower! :-)


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> But it might cause an aircraft to hit the tower! :-)
>

I've experienced a few radar failures. I've never known one to cause an
aircraft to quit flying.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>But it might cause an aircraft to hit the tower! :-)
>>
>
>
> I've experienced a few radar failures. I've never known one to cause an
> aircraft to quit flying.
>
>

I didn't say it would cause it to quit flying. Well, at least not until
after it hit the tower.

Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I didn't say it would cause it to quit flying. Well, at least not until
> after it hit the tower.
>

So how does a radar failure cause the aircraft to hit the tower?

"David Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
> /G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
> with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
> and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.
>
> Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
> not to be radar any more.
>
> How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
> nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway? How do you maintain
> separation? Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
> working? I assume this is in the controller's handbook, but forgive my
> laziness. Just curious.
>
> -- David Brooks
>
> For the purists, s/radar/RADAR/g. For the pedants, 1,$s/radar/RADAR/g

Love the VI commands. Shouldn't they have an escape-escape sequence before them?

-Nathan

In article >,
(Nathan Young) wrote:

> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> >...
> > Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
> > /G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
> > with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
> > and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.
> >
> > Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
> > not to be radar any more.
> >
> > How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
> > nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway? How do you maintain
> > separation? Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
> > working? I assume this is in the controller's handbook, but forgive my
> > laziness. Just curious.
> >
> > -- David Brooks
> >
> > For the purists, s/radar/RADAR/g. For the pedants, 1,$s/radar/RADAR/g
>
> Love the VI commands. Shouldn't they have an escape-escape sequence before
> them?

vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?

Anyway, he's wrong(ish). It's decades since radar has been considered
an acronym and spelled RADAR. Even my Pathetic Oxford spells it all
lower-case. After all, we don't go around shouting LASER when we mean
laser any more, do we?

Hamish (and don't get me started on those people who insist on
"ded. reckoning"...:-))

Hamish Reid > wrote:
> vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?

Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>
> Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)

SOS is to TECO what a J3 is to a G-IV.

-Ron
.. MAKE LOVE
NOT WAR?
[4K CORE]

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>
> Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)

SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
the PDP-11 (all too true, unfortunately -- I really am *not* nostalgic
for those days. Give me a nice G5 Mac any day).

Hamish (who once had his own vast 2.5Mb RK05 disk)

In article >,
Hamish Reid > wrote:

> In article >,
> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
> >
> > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> > pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>
> SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> the PDP-11

Been there, done that.

> Give me a nice G5 Mac any day

Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.

Hamish Reid wrote:
> In article >,
> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
>>Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>
>>>vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>>
>>Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
>>pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>
>
> SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> the PDP-11 (all too true, unfortunately -- I really am *not* nostalgic
> for those days. Give me a nice G5 Mac any day).
>
> Hamish (who once had his own vast 2.5Mb RK05 disk)

I still liked the RL02 better! :-)


Matt

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>>
>>>>vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>>>
>>>Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
>>>pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>>
>>SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
>>the PDP-11
>
>
> Been there, done that.
>
>
>>Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
>
>
> Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
> machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
> disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
> try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.

Why, who would mug you for an 11/45! :-)

Matt

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> >> Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
> >> working?
> >>
> >
> >Nope. The loss of radar will not cause the ATC facility to hit an
aircraft
> >or terrain.
>
> But it could cause an aircraft to hit an ATC facility. Probably why
> you guys are moving all those tracons off the fields and into safe
> locations in the middle of nowhere.
>

LOL! One of the standard jokes around the Center here is that no matter how
bad you screw up, at least the wreckage won't hit the building...

Chip, ZTL

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Question for the enroute controllers. You have a spamcan or two, not filed
> /G, cleared direct to some fix. You don't care whether they are navigating
> with pilotage, a VFR GPS, or a ham sandwich, so long as they are on radar
> and don't go too grotesquely out of the way.
>
> Now the radar goes kaplooey, or whatever noise radar makes when it decides
> not to be radar any more.

In a Center, it sounds exactly like 100 controllers and engineers all saying
"Oh ****!" at the same time...

>
> How do you get these guys into the no-radar rules - point them at the
> nearest navaid? Tell them to join the nearest airway? How do you maintain
> separation?
>

We fake it while we transition into non-radar... Literally. You can't just
point everyone at an airway, and the theory of aiming everyone at the
nearest navaid could be downright dangerous in busy airspace. There are
some super busy ATC sectors that only have one navaid in the whole sector,
and in airspace where the average aircraft is doing six to eight miles a
minute. Not necessarily the safest idea to take people off of random nav
direct destination to put them over the nearest navaid choke point and on
airways as your first move. You transition to non-radar airplane by
airplane as you can and as the strips indicate is safe. No body buys a deal
when the automated system collapses because it is usually impossible to go
immediately from radar (5 miles) to non radar (20 miles) separation. A good
Center controller can put three fast moving aircraft at the same altitude
into an 18 mile ring of airspace using radar separation. Turn that radar
off and now he needs 60 miles for the same three planes by procedure unless
he can establish another non-radar rule to reduce the bubble.


>Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
> working?

Not at all. It happens from time to time that the system goes belly up.
You just hope it happens on your day off. Twice I've seen both the primary
system (NAS) and the back-up system (DARC) go tits-up. That's where the
much-maligned, low-tech, old fashioned flight progress strip comes in handy.
Funny how the pointy headed contractor technocrats keep trying to convince
us that paper strips are "obsolete". The thing is, strips *never* break.

Chip, ZTL

Personally, I like the washing-machine-like RP06. I love the seek tests
that looks like someone put it on the "spin" cycle with a couple of wet
towels off-center.

"ed" if I have to (if things are really screwed up), but use VI
regularly on a headless server. SOS? Now that's a blast from the past.

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
> Hamish Reid wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>>
>>>> vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>>>
>>>
>>> Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
>>> pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
>> the PDP-11 (all too true, unfortunately -- I really am *not* nostalgic
>> for those days. Give me a nice G5 Mac any day).
>>
>> Hamish (who once had his own vast 2.5Mb RK05 disk)
>
>
> I still liked the RL02 better! :-)
>
>
> Matt
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Roy Smith > wrote:
> >
> > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
> > >
> > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> > > pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
> >
> > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> > the PDP-11
>
> Been there, done that.
>
> > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
>
> Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
> machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
> disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
> try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.

I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and a
bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left 'em
alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
PowerBook...

Hamish

In article >,
Hamish Reid > wrote:

> In article >,
> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Roy Smith > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
> > > >
> > > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> > > > pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
> > >
> > > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> > > the PDP-11
> >
> > Been there, done that.
> >
> > > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
> >
> > Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
> > machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
> > disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
> > try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.
>
> I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
> which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and a
> bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left 'em
> alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
> PowerBook...
>
> Hamish

I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.

Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)

In article >,
Roy Smith > wrote:

> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Roy Smith > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article >,
> > > > Roy Smith > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > > > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
> > > > >
> > > > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> > > > > pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
> > > >
> > > > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> > > > the PDP-11
> > >
> > > Been there, done that.
> > >
> > > > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
> > >
> > > Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
> > > machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
> > > disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
> > > try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.
> >
> > I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
> > which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and a
> > bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left 'em
> > alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
> > PowerBook...
>
> I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
> pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.
>
> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)

Well, I can't beat any of this, but I do have -- somewhere in the tons
of junk I seem to have here -- a CDC COMPASS programming guide bundled
up with a type-written manual for a Simula-67 compiler on the 6600.
Wish I could find some of the card images I used to feed it -- give it
a thousand line program and at some indeterminate time later it would
simply say "Syntax error" and that was that. No hints what the error(s)
was / were or where it / they were...

Hamish

Chip Jones wrote:
> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>>
>>>>Does this possibility make you nervous while the radar is
>>>>working?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Nope. The loss of radar will not cause the ATC facility to hit an
>>
> aircraft
>
>>>or terrain.
>>
>>But it could cause an aircraft to hit an ATC facility. Probably why
>>you guys are moving all those tracons off the fields and into safe
>>locations in the middle of nowhere.
>>
>
>
> LOL! One of the standard jokes around the Center here is that no matter how
> bad you screw up, at least the wreckage won't hit the building...

Chip, say again the coordinates of your Center facility. :-)

Matt

Dan Truesdell wrote:
> Personally, I like the washing-machine-like RP06. I love the seek tests
> that looks like someone put it on the "spin" cycle with a couple of wet
> towels off-center.

Did the RP06 have removable media? I can't remember. I do remember
lugging around the RL02 disks though!


Matt

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
>
>>In article >,
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article >,
>>>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>>>>>
>>>>>Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
>>>>>pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>>>>
>>>>SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
>>>>the PDP-11
>>>
>>>Been there, done that.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
>>>
>>>Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a modest
>>>machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
>>>disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
>>>try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.
>>
>>I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
>>which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and a
>>bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left 'em
>>alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
>>PowerBook...
>>
>> Hamish
>
>
> I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
> pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.
>
> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)

And both will probably still function long after your Powerbook is scrap!

Matt

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Roy Smith > wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article >,
> > > > Roy Smith > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> > > > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for
teco?
> > > > >
> > > > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
> > > > > pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
> > > >
> > > > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> > > > the PDP-11
> > >
> > > Been there, done that.
> > >
> > > > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
> > >
> > > Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a
modest
> > > machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg ram, 40 gig
> > > disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah, blah, but just
> > > try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how far you get.
> >
> > I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
> > which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and a
> > bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left 'em
> > alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
> > PowerBook...
> >
> > Hamish
>
> I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
> pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.
>
> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)

I have an entire 6600 stack.

Roy Smith > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Hamish Reid > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Roy Smith > wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > Hamish Reid > wrote:
>> >
>> > > In article >,
>> > > Roy Smith > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
>> > > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for
>> > > > > teco?
>> > > >
>> > > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to
>> > > > be pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>> > >
>> > > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches
>> > > on the PDP-11
>> >
>> > Been there, done that.
>> >
>> > > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
>> >
>> > Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a
>> > modest machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg
>> > ram, 40 gig disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah,
>> > blah, but just try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how
>> > far you get.
>>
>> I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
>> which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and
>> a bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left
>> 'em alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
>> PowerBook...
>>
>> Hamish
>
> I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
> pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.
>
> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)
>

I'll have to dig around a little bit, but I had the 17 instructions that
you keyed in to the front panel switchs of a Honeywell 316 to bootstrap
to the papertape reader to load the main bootstrap to read the tape
drive. Those were the days. :)

"John Theune" > wrote in message
1...
> Roy Smith > wrote in
> :
>
> > In article >,
> > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> >
> >> In article >,
> >> Roy Smith > wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > In article >,
> >> > > Roy Smith > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hamish Reid > wrote:
> >> > > > > vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for
> >> > > > > teco?
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to
> >> > > > be pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
> >> > >
> >> > > SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches
> >> > > on the PDP-11
> >> >
> >> > Been there, done that.
> >> >
> >> > > Give me a nice G5 Mac any day
> >> >
> >> > Like the 12" PowerBook I'm typing this on? It's actually quite a
> >> > modest machine by today's standards: 1 GHz G4 processor, 512 meg
> >> > ram, 40 gig disk, wireless ethernet, read/write CD/DVD, blah, blah,
> >> > blah, but just try and carry an 11/45 onto the subway and see how
> >> > far you get.
> >>
> >> I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
> >> which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and
> >> a bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left
> >> 'em alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
> >> PowerBook...
> >>
> >> Hamish
> >
> > I'll see your boot prom and raise you a three-board core module from a
> > pdp-8 that's hanging on my wall.
> >
> > Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> > interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> > pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)
> >
>
> I'll have to dig around a little bit, but I had the 17 instructions that
> you keyed in to the front panel switchs of a Honeywell 316 to bootstrap
> to the papertape reader to load the main bootstrap to read the tape
> drive. Those were the days. :)

Especially when you had blinking lights to track the insrtuction register.

Yup. Big stacks with about 10 platters (I think). I still have a
read/write head from one. We 4 or 5 of them. Then got an RP07
"Winchester" drive (non-removable). Someone once told me that the term
"winchester" came from IBM, where their non-removable drive was the
3030. Any truth to that? (The RP07 was even more energetic during seek
tests.)

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
>
>
> Did the RP06 have removable media? I can't remember. I do remember
> lugging around the RL02 disks though!
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

Dan Truesdell > wrote:
> Someone once told me that the term "winchester" came from IBM, where
> their non-removable drive was the 3030. Any truth to that?

That's certainly the story I always heard. Goes back to the IBM-1130
days. I played with an 1130 some, but they were pretty much gone by the
time I came around.

> > >> I actually still have the "boot PROM" from an old PDP-11 (not sure
> > >> which model) -- it's just a standard Unibus board with 16 diodes and
> > >> a bunch of resistors on it. You cut the diode leads for a zero, left
> > >> 'em alone (or soldered them back) for a one. It's larger than your
> > >> PowerBook...

I am quite sure it had 256 diodes (I modified one to boot not only from 8"
floppy, but from papertape and disk as well). This was on a PDP 1140.
I remember that machine fondly: I was writing up my graduate paper and had
been typing for more than 2 1/2 hours (without saving! the foolishness of
youth...) when the lights went out, and the machine with them.
Bother.
I put the machine in halt mode (nice toggle switches on the front...) and
went to restore power. When I had power back, I took out the source code
for the operating system (RT11) and the editor. I assumed the editor had
been at the "waiting for input" point and found out which PC location it
was. I entered this location with the toggle switches, put the machine in
run mode and saved my work. The joys of core memory!
Later I worked with a PDP model 1122 1/2.

Roy Smith wrote:
> Dan Truesdell > wrote:
>
>>Someone once told me that the term "winchester" came from IBM, where
>>their non-removable drive was the 3030. Any truth to that?
>
>
> That's certainly the story I always heard. Goes back to the IBM-1130
> days. I played with an 1130 some, but they were pretty much gone by the
> time I came around.

The IBM 3330 (not 3030) was the Winchester and it was introduced shortly after
the System/360 gave way to the System/370. I tested the OS MFT/MVT software for
them back in the early '70s. IIRC it was the first IBM drive that used "rotation
position sensing", so reads/writes could be ordered to minimize rotational delay.

The 1130 had a 2311 drive, I think. Saw 1130s that were used for chip design but
never used one personally. They drove a huge plotter that produced an image that
was photographically reduced to make the masks for the photlithography in chip
manufaturing. The 1130's sister, the 1800, was used as a process controller for
pulling silicon crystals.

Yup, I worked in the old Components Division where all the cancer clusters are
generating lawsuits.

--

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:


>> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
>> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
>> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)
>
> I have an entire 6600 stack.

Young pups!!! The CDC-6600 was what we got to replace the CDC-1604, which
was an upgrade from the CDC-8231, which was to replace the IBM-1620, which
meant we didn't have to use the LGP-30 (with one word of internal memory)
anymore. Eventually we were able to get rid of the Pace 220 (anyone need a
LOT of dual-triodes?).

[Yes, I still remember many long nights trying to figure out where the 6600
performance went, when you were pretty sure it was just some mod to a piece
of PP code, and someone forgot to do a piffer (PFR) in a loop. Gack! The
useless information I still have cluttering up my aging mind.]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

"Jaap Berkhout" > wrote in
:

> I am quite sure it had 256 diodes (I modified one to boot not only
> from 8" floppy, but from papertape and disk as well). This was on a
> PDP 1140.

I know the PDP-8 had the diode boot card. Did the 11/40? For some reason
I thought it had a real ROM. [May have been an option for the diode card -
allowed you to change it. Better than the earlier version where you
actually pried pieces of copper off the board.]

We still have some PDP-11's in operation. Support for a couple of Air
Force contracts. One is running the development software. Two more are
running the test station. But at LEAST we were able, a couple of years
ago, to get rid of the paper tape punch!!! Through a party when that went!

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> :
>
>
> >> Somewhere in the closet I've got some CDC-6600 memory. Probably more
> >> interesting from a history of technology point of view, but not as
> >> pretty, so it lives in the closet instead of on the wall :-)
> >
> > I have an entire 6600 stack.
>
> Young pups!!! The CDC-6600 was what we got to replace the CDC-1604,
which
> was an upgrade from the CDC-8231, which was to replace the IBM-1620, which
> meant we didn't have to use the LGP-30 (with one word of internal memory)
> anymore. Eventually we were able to get rid of the Pace 220 (anyone need
a
> LOT of dual-triodes?).

I wrote my senior project on a CDC-4800, I don't think you can beat that. :)
A real "main frame" computer.

> [Yes, I still remember many long nights trying to figure out where the
6600
> performance went, when you were pretty sure it was just some mod to a
piece
> of PP code, and someone forgot to do a piffer (PFR) in a loop. Gack!
The
> useless information I still have cluttering up my aging mind.]

I drew the install for RPL's Cyber 180 that RPL replaced their 6600 with.
Hadly any of the stacks survived, because people wanted the individual
memory cards. (12 ea)

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message ...
> "Jaap Berkhout" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I am quite sure it had 256 diodes (I modified one to boot not only
> > from 8" floppy, but from papertape and disk as well). This was on a
> > PDP 1140.
>
> I know the PDP-8 had the diode boot card. Did the 11/40?

Yep.

> For some reason I thought it had a real ROM. [May have been an option for the diode card -
> allowed you to change it. Better than the earlier version where you
> actually pried pieces of copper off the board.]

The diode card is a real rom. The older 11's all booted out of UNIBUS memory.
I'm sure someone made a UNIBUS card with a ROM chip on it, but I never saw one.
It only takes a few instructions to load sector zero off the disks like the RK05 and jump
to it. From there you have 512 bytes to play with to retrieve the rest of the boot image
off the disk.

> We still have some PDP-11's in operation. Support for a couple of Air
> Force contracts. One is running the development software.

Crikes, even back when I was running around the Army recycling people's no longer
suitable for real work PDP-11's into internet routers, I was cross compiling from a
VAX. Of course VAX's are pretty much gone these days as well.

Now the key is, do you know what the MARK instruction does.

Roy Smith wrote:
> Dan Truesdell > wrote:
>
>>Someone once told me that the term "winchester" came from IBM, where
>>their non-removable drive was the 3030. Any truth to that?
>
>
> That's certainly the story I always heard. Goes back to the IBM-1130
> days. I played with an 1130 some, but they were pretty much gone by the
> time I came around.

I remember the "Winchester" as being a single platter sealed drive
that gave you 30 meg with 30 ms access time. The drives quickly
evolved into faster/higher capacity/smaller size units with the
name Winchester continuing to be associated with the "sealed"
method of construction. First actual 30-30 I remember seeing was
an option on a line of Ohio Scientific microcomputers.

Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA, Ohio Scientific C1P 32k 6502 Dual floppy/ASR33

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

> I wrote my senior project on a CDC-4800, I don't think you can beat
> that. :) A real "main frame" computer.

Actually, that's way newer than most of the ones I worked on. Heck, it had
RTL IC's and (if I recall correctly) those wierd back-to-back cards. Not a
vacuum tube in sight.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in
:

> The diode card is a real rom.

Or could be called an FPROM, since we changed then in the field.

> Now the key is, do you know what the MARK instruction does.

I know what it did on the IBM-1620. Set the mark bit at a digit
address. [For those "newbies" lurking - the 1620 didn't have words. It
had digits. Banks of 20,000 each (we could only afford one bank). Each
digit took six bits. Four were for the decimal digit (no HEX spoken
here!). One was a mark bit, and one was ... or durn, "stop" bit?. Each
instruction was terminated by setting one or both of these bits.

You could clear memory by doing a write of an instruction to the next
address, that overwrote the stop/mark bits with an instruction. You
could clear a bank of memory in about 1/8th second!!! Amazingly fast.

To give you an idea of just how fast this machine was, I was pretty good
at debugging through my program with the run/step switches. You could
look down at your program, go "Hmmm, I know it's probably 20 or 30 lines
to the next section I need to step through." and do a quick RUN, then
press STOP. Time it right and you could pretty much estimate how many
lines of code you had executed. [Try THAT with your Pentium 4!]

I don't remember a mark instruction on a VAX, or even a PDP-11.

Of course, there are always the instructions like:

SPI -- Shred Programmer Immediate

or

HCF -- Halt and Catch Fire


-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message ...

>
> I don't remember a mark instruction on a VAX, or even a PDP-11.
>
Not all the PDP-11's had it. It was kind of a useless thing. It was an oddball
subroutine linkage instruction that you put on the you'd jump to it and it swapped
a register and jumped again.

"James M. Knox" > wrote:
> I don't remember a mark instruction on a VAX, or even a PDP-11.

I don't remember the details, but it did something funky with the stack
pointer and R5 which only worked right if you weren't running separate
I/D space. Had something to do with jumping back and forth between
co-routines (early hardware support for threading?).

"James M. Knox" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I wrote my senior project on a CDC-4800, I don't think you can beat
> > that. :) A real "main frame" computer.
>
> Actually, that's way newer than most of the ones I worked on. Heck, it
had
> RTL IC's and (if I recall correctly) those wierd back-to-back cards. Not
a
> vacuum tube in sight.

The part that was instructive about the CDC4800 mainframe was that it was
built on a frame similar to a telephone frame. The original I/O device was
a card reader, but there was tape for it by the 1970s.

>
>Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA, Ohio Scientific C1P 32k 6502 Dual floppy/ASR33

Man! Mine is absolutely modern.
C28P, 48K dynamic RAM and dual 8" Siemens drives.
Cost me $4,000 without a monitor or keyboard. I used a model 28
Teletype for a printer.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Return address modified due to dumb virus checkers

"James M. Knox" > writes:
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote
>
> > I wrote my senior project on a CDC-4800, I don't think you can beat
> > that. :) A real "main frame" computer.
>
> Actually, that's way newer than most of the ones I worked on. Heck, it had
> RTL IC's and (if I recall correctly) those wierd back-to-back cards. Not a
> vacuum tube in sight.

With RTL, you didn't need vacuum tubes to heat your space.

Do you want to know what a lightning spike does to a Bendix
G15 [vacuum tubes, serial, drum memory]?

Sad part is that my airplane predates most of these computers. When new,
the computers cost much more than the airplane, but now I bet you couldn't
fill my tanks for what you could get for most of 'em!

Roy Smith wrote:

> "James M. Knox" > wrote:
> > I don't remember a mark instruction on a VAX, or even a PDP-11.
>
> I don't remember the details, but it did something funky with the stack
> pointer and R5 which only worked right if you weren't running separate
> I/D space. Had something to do with jumping back and forth between
> co-routines (early hardware support for threading?).

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Now we're talking. FIrst computer I built was an Ohio Scientific 6800 board.
I had been saving my pennies for the 6502 board, but managed to get one of the
very first 6800 boards. I lost that board 3 years ago in a flooded basement,
but I still have the original manuals that came with it.

Tom Pappano wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> > Dan Truesdell > wrote:
> >
> >>Someone once told me that the term "winchester" came from IBM, where
> >>their non-removable drive was the 3030. Any truth to that?
> >
> >
> > That's certainly the story I always heard. Goes back to the IBM-1130
> > days. I played with an 1130 some, but they were pretty much gone by the
> > time I came around.
>
> I remember the "Winchester" as being a single platter sealed drive
> that gave you 30 meg with 30 ms access time. The drives quickly
> evolved into faster/higher capacity/smaller size units with the
> name Winchester continuing to be associated with the "sealed"
> method of construction. First actual 30-30 I remember seeing was
> an option on a line of Ohio Scientific microcomputers.
>
> Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA, Ohio Scientific C1P 32k 6502 Dual floppy/ASR33

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Manuals are great. I still have my original PC (ATT/Oliveti), but also
have the manual for the "Trash 80" I first learned on (with a whopping
4K of memory. Gotta love that "CLOAD" command, too.)

Ray Andraka wrote:
> Now we're talking. FIrst computer I built was an Ohio Scientific 6800 board.
> I had been saving my pennies for the 6502 board, but managed to get one of the
> very first 6800 boards. I lost that board 3 years ago in a flooded basement,
> but I still have the original manuals that came with it.
>
> Tom Pappano wrote:
>
>
>>Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>>Dan Truesdell > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Someone once told me that the term "winchester" came from IBM, where
>>>>their non-removable drive was the 3030. Any truth to that?
>>>
>>>
>>>That's certainly the story I always heard. Goes back to the IBM-1130
>>>days. I played with an 1130 some, but they were pretty much gone by the
>>>time I came around.
>>
>>I remember the "Winchester" as being a single platter sealed drive
>>that gave you 30 meg with 30 ms access time. The drives quickly
>>evolved into faster/higher capacity/smaller size units with the
>>name Winchester continuing to be associated with the "sealed"
>>method of construction. First actual 30-30 I remember seeing was
>>an option on a line of Ohio Scientific microcomputers.
>>
>>Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA, Ohio Scientific C1P 32k 6502 Dual floppy/ASR33
>
>
> --
> --Ray Andraka, P.E.
> President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
> 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
> email
> http://www.andraka.com
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
>
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

Nothin like old farts in a ****in contest :)

Hamish Reid wrote:
> In article >,
> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
>>Hamish Reid > wrote:
>>
>>>vi, humph. It's ed. Kids these days... :-). Anyone else for teco?
>>
>>Never did any TECO, but I did use SOS, a close cousin. Used to be
>>pretty good at the 029 card punch too :-)
>
>
> SOS? Luxury! I used to enter things with the front panel switches on
> the PDP-11 (all too true, unfortunately -- I really am *not* nostalgic
> for those days. Give me a nice G5 Mac any day).
>
> Hamish (who once had his own vast 2.5Mb RK05 disk)

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
om...
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
>...

> > For the purists, s/radar/RADAR/g. For the pedants, 1,$s/radar/RADAR/g
>
> Love the VI commands. Shouldn't they have an escape-escape sequence
before them?

For the record, and getting back on the thread after a long time away from
my news server: I was visualizing piping the article through sed. Speaking
as someone who last worked on UNIX (at Microsoft) 3.5 years ago. Some things
you can't forget.

-- David Brooks